Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 04:49:44 -0400 From: Suzan Wynne <firstname.lastname@example.org> To: "Miller, Moishe" <email@example.com> Subject: [Fwd: Elimelech of Dynow] From: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu> To: "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'DISD123@aol.com'" <DISD123@aol.com>, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com> Subject: Elimelech of Dynow Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:59:49 -0400 I was wondering if your research has connected to Rabbi Tswi Elimelech from Dinow. I have a letter from Rabbbi Chaim Kreiswirth, the Chief Rabbi of Antwerp,that says, ".... our common great-grandfather Reb Moshe Yossef Polimer...Hiswife was the grandchild of the very famous Rabbi Tswi Elimelech from Dinow." I believe that Tswi Elimelech's last name was Shapira, Spira, or something similar. I would like to find information on the descendent's of Tswi Elimelech. Thanks, Joel Weiner firstname.lastname@example.org _____________________________________________________________________ Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 03:14:28 -0400 To: email@example.com From: "firstname.lastname@example.org" <email@example.com> Subject: [Fwd: Elimelech of Dynow] Cc: "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com>, "'DISD123@aol.com'"
, "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com> Hi, Suzan sent me your note. Please visit my website at www.langsam.com or for the specific page in question, please view http://www.ics.uci.edu/~dan/genealogy/Miller/spira/bny-yscr.htm Can you tell me anymore about the specific connection? Who was Reb Moshe Yossef Polimer married to? What were her parent's names? Does Rabbi Kreiswirth have email? Please stay in touch, as I would like to add your branch into the tree. Thanks! Moishe Miller firstname.lastname@example.org _____________________________________________________________________ From: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu> To: "'email@example.com'" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: Elimelech of Dynow and Rabbi Chaim Kreiswirth Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:22:50 -0400 Moishe- Thank you for your telephone call last night. It was good talking with you. I hope that we can determine one way or another if we have a common branch in our family trees. The piece of information that started my quest for information about Elimelech of Dynow was that Rabbi Kreiswirth, in a letter to another Polimer descendent, said that his ancestor, Moshe Yossef Polimer, had a wife who was a granddaughter of Elimelech of Dynow. We know that Moshe Yossef Polimer was married twice, once to Miriam, who had previously been married to Samuel Kahlman Warfield, and earlier to a woman whose name is unknown. In addition to that information, this is what I know: 1) My great-great-grandfather was Isaac Polimer. According to the death certificate of one of his children, Isaac was from Hlomcza, Austria. 2) Rabbi Chaim Kreiswirth's great-great-grandfather (his mother's mother's mother's father) was Moshe Yossef Polimer. According to the Rabbi, he was a farmer from (my interpretation of what he said, followed by some serious map searching) "Siedlce or Siedlec" Galicia. 3) According to his USA arrival passenger ship manifest, the son of Moshe Yossef indicated that he was from Zadownicki, Austria. 4) There was also Jacob Polimer whose son, Menashe, settled in Boston. According to Menashe's death certificate, he was from Austria. Jacob was the great-great-grandfather of Sueellen Goodman. 5) Several years ago, I asked Rabbi Kreiswirth if he knew the relationship between Isaac, Moshe, and Jacob. He told me that they were brothers. 6) However, some family tree charts that were prepared back in the 1930's by a descendent of Moshe showed boxes and lines that could be interpreted to mean that Moshe was the FATHER of Isaac and Jacob, and not their brother. It is interesting to note that on those charts, the name was anglicized as "Moses Joseph". I have always assumed that Rabbi Kreiswirth had better information, as he was very seriously researching this Polimer family history back in the 1950's and 1960's. 7) Rabbi Kreiswirth was not able to provide any information about the parents of Isaac/Jacob/Moshe Polimer. 8) There is some confusion about the last names on Rabbi Kreiswirth's paternal side. In a responsa he wrote, he mentions that his father was Rabbi Abraham Yosef Rapaport from Magnishov. However, other reliable sources indicate that his parents were Abraham Yosef Sherman and "? Rapaport". Abraham Yosef may have taken his wife's name, as her ancestorial line goes to Chaim HaKoen (HaMechaber) Rappoport. 9) Rabbi Kreiswirth's mother's parents were Rabbi Aaron Kreiswirth and Esther Fisch. Esther's grandfather was Moshe Yossef Polimer. 10) Rabbi Kreiswirth's wife, Sarah Grodzinsky, is the daughter of Rabbi Abraham Grodzinsky, Dean of the Slobodka Yeshiva (where Rabbi Kreiswirth went). Sarah's mother, Chasya Gisseh Heller, is the daughter of Rabbi DovBer Hirsch. 11) Rabbi Kreiswirth's son is Rabbi Dov Zvi Kreiswirth of Lakewood, NJ. 12) Rabbi Kreiswirth's daughter Penina is married to Rabbi Pincus Zelivansky of Jerusalem, whose lineage is traced back to Joseph Treves, ABD of Paris, born about 1300 (in "The Unbroken Chain"). His grandfather was Rabbi Aryeh Shapiro from Bialystok who was the son of Rabbi Refoel of Volozhin who was the son in law of the Netziv of Volozhin. CONTACT INFORMATION: Rabbi Chaim Kreiswirth Quiten Matsijslei 34 2018 Anterwerpen Belgium Phone 3-233-5567 Rabbi Dov Zvi Kreiswirth Lakewood, NJ Penina Zelivansky Sorotzkin Street 41 Jerusalem, Israel email = Zahava126@aol.com Dr. Henri Rosenberg (creator of a massive website about Rabbi Chaim Kreiswirth) http://www.moronhoravkreiswirth.org email@example.com President@goedkosjer.org As we discussed, I will ask Henri Rosenberg to speak to Rabbi Chaim Kreiswirth about his connection to Elimelech of Dynow. If I learn anything, I will let you know. If you learn anything, let me know. Regards, Joel Weiner 9026 Shinleaf Ct. Columbia, MD 21045 email = firstname.lastname@example.org phone = 410-992-7867 _____________________________________________________________________ From: "Moishe Miller" To: email@example.com cc: firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:30:56 -0400 Subject: Spoke w/ R' Kreiswirth Hi, There is some ambiguity. I spoke with R' Kreizwirth myself three times today. He explained his relationship to the Spira family. His connection is via R' Yakov Uri, ABD Turka, who was a son-in-law to R' Hersh Mylech (Tzvi Elimelech) Spira through R' Yakov Uri's first marriage. R' Yakov Uri was a grand-son-in-law via his second marriage. R' Yakov Uri's first wife, Rivka Spira, died young. His second wife, Yitta Leah Schonfeld, was a daughter of Sara Spira (and Moshe Schonfeld). Sara was an older sister of Rivka. Anyhow, in my existing tree, I have the oldest child of R' Yakov Uri's first marriage as Henya, married to a Eliyahu (Elias) Fisch. In your tree, you have Hanna Polimer married to Eliyahu Fisch. So we are close, but obviously not in sync. I have no idea what is correct. The only thing I can tell you is that Rivka died in the 1830's and had four children. This makes her eligible to marry either generation. Can you send me a gedcom of the Moshe Yosef Polimer family (from him to current day)? I have FTM 5.0b. Thanks!!! -Moishe _____________________________________________________________________ From: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu> To: 'Moishe Miller' Cc: firstname.lastname@example.org, email@example.com Subject: RE: Spoke w/ R' Kreiswirth Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:36:54 -0400 Moishe- I think it is great that you were able to call Rabbi Kreiswirth and speak with him three times! I have never done so, perhaps because I have worried about not being able to communicate well enough to avoid adding to the confusion. Unfortunately, my Hebrew abilities are 'synagogue' limited, and Yiddish, Dutch, etc. are non-existent. I needed to see the information you obtained from Rabbi Kreiswirth in picture form, so I created a mini-family tree. I have attached it as a jpg file and in an MS Word file. Let me know if you can't open one of them, or if it doesn't seem to match what he told you. I will send you the gedcom file you requested in a short while. It starts with a Unknown Father of Moshe Yosef, Isaac and Jacob Polimer, thereby assuming that they were brothers. Joel _____________________________________________________________________ "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu> Friday April 27, 2001 09:49 AM To: "'Moishe Miller'" Subject: Polimer Gedcom Moishe- Here it is, with 803 people. Let me know if you cannot open it with FTM. I am on a Macintosh, using Reunion. I have NOT filtered out living people, so please do not post this data on a website or other public forum. Thanks, Joel (See attached file: Polimer.ged) _____________________________________________________________________ From: Moishe Miller Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 3:04 PM To: Weiner, Joel A. Subject: RE: Spoke w/ R' Kreiswirth Descendants of Yakov Uri 1 Yakov Uri 1810 - 1855 .. +Rivka Spira - 1841 ......... 2 Henya Uri ............. +Moshe Yosef Polimer ......... 2 Gittel Hinda Uri ............. +Moshe Rottenberg ......... 2 Avrohm Yehoshua Heshel Uri ............. +girl ? ......... *2nd Wife of Avrohm Yehoshua Heshel Uri: ............. +girl ? - #2 ......... 2 Rochel Leah Uri ............. +Naftali Seidenfeld 1831 - 1903 *2nd Wife of Yakov Uri: .. +Yitta Leah Schonfeld ......... 2 Frieda Uri - 1909 ............. +Shmuel Zanvil Kallech 1840 - 1883 ......... 2 Elyakim Uri ......... 2 Raizel Uri ............. +Yitzchok Perlmutter ......... 2 Chana Mindel Uri ............. +Tzvi Newman ......... 2 Chava Uri 1850 - 1932 ............. +Samuel Fisch Please copy my home email on everything. this mailbox is the one I use at work. The one I do my genealogy from is firstname.lastname@example.org He did not lay out all the info above. In fact, he only knew that he came from Henya, daughter of R' Yakov Uri, ABD Turka. I found my old source that placed her husband as Eliyahu Fisch. While that is possible, the old source was NOT dealing with this branch, nor was it a descendent of this branch. R' Kreizwirth told me that he comes from Henya, so I am changing the spouse to be Moshe Polimer, with a note about Eliyahu Fish. It seems likely that the person that wrote the source I saw confused the father and the son, so there is some truth in it, just the generations are confused. -Moishe email@example.com PS: Have you spoken with Mietek Silberg ? _____________________________________________________________________ From: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu> To: 'Moishe Miller', "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com> Cc: "'ASher@mc.cc.md.us'" <ASher@mc.cc.md.us>, "'AdrienneSher@msn.com'" <AdrienneSher@msn.com> Subject: RE: Spoke w/ R' Kreiswirth Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 15:37:12 -0400 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Moishe- I will have to study the information you sent me below to see if dates make sense. I will let you know if I see any conflicts. Where did you get the name of Mietek from? Yes, I have communicated with him. It was a few years ago. I will need to pull my files apart to find his letter(s). I recall that he is Michael Silberg in Australia. There is another individual who has been doing research for 50+ years that touches on the Kreiswirth branch, and you should discuss the link to Uri/Spira with him. He is Professor George Sackheim, and his email is: ZeraKodesh@aol.com. I last heard from him about six months ago. He is very knowledgeable on many rabbinic lines. A professional genealogist who has worked on the Kreiswirth family is Nicki Russler, firstname.lastname@example.org. Nicki and I exchanged a number of emails about 3 years ago, when someone retained her to do some Kreiswirth research. If you prefer, I could email Nicki Russler and George Sackheim. Just let me know. I don't know what else I can do at this time to better illuminate or document the connection from Elimelech of Dinow to my Polimer's. I asked Dr. Henri Rosenberg to discuss this topic with Rabbi Kreiswirth, but obviously you got to him first! Let's keep in touch. Thanks, Joel _____________________________________________________________________ From: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu> To: "'email@example.com'" <firstname.lastname@example.org>, "'President@goedkosjer.org'" <President@goedkosjer.org>, "'AdrienneSher@msn.com'" <AdrienneSher@msn.com>, "'AHSHER@ex-pressnet.com'" <AHSHER@ex-pressnet.com> Subject: Confusion in Rabbi Yakov Uri to Kreiswirth/Polimer lineage Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:50:53 -0400 Moishe, Henri, Al, Adrienne- Hello to all, and thank you for helping me to deepen the 'roots' of my family tree! I would like to try to clarify a few problems I see in the linkage we have created between Tzvi Elimelech and the Polimer/Kreiswirth branches. I added the information below "The Descendants of Yakov Uri" (that I received from Moishe Miller) into my database. I then printed out a chart from Rabbi Hersch Mylech Spira (Tzvi Elimelech) to Rabbi Kreiswirth's parents, for the purpose of looking at the dates given for births and deaths. I deleted any branches of the tree that were unnecessary for this analysis, and then saved the chart. It is attached as a jpg file, MS Word document, and gif file. Please open and print one of them so that you can follow what I say below. First, and a minor, problem is that Moishe says in his message of April 26 that Rivka Spira "died in the 1830's." However, in the data he sent on April 27, it shows her passing in 1841. This does not really make any difference in the following consideration. My chart shows Samuel Kalman Polmer and his sister Rosalyn "Rose" Polmer both being born 1860/61. Their father, Napthali, is shown born "about 1840" which would make him about 20 years old when they were born. So far, that makes sense. He could have been a few years younger than 20 when Samuel and Rosalyn were born, perhaps 17. So that would make it possible for his birth year to have been about 1843. Next, if Napthali was born about 1840 - 1843, then his mother (Henya Uri Polimer, as shown in the chart) would need to have been born about 1823 - 1826 or earlier. I calculate this assuming that she would have been at least 17 when she had her first child (Napthali). This is a reasonable guess, but a first child at 15 or 16 is not unheard of. But if Henya was 17 in 1840 - 1843, then she would have born 1823 - 1826. If the above two paragraphs are true, then we have a problem with Rabbi Yakov Uri being Henya's father, as he was born 1810, and would have been 13 - 16 when Henya was born in 1823 - 1826. If Henya or Napthali were older than about 17 when either had their first child, then that makes Rabbi Uri even younger! So either Rabbi Yakov Uri, Henya Uri, and Napthali Polmer ALL had children at a very young age (17 or less), or else the marriage we have "created" between Henya Uri and Moshe Yosef Polimer must be questioned. Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions? Joel _____________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:15:25 -0400 To: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu>, "'President@goedkosjer.org'" , "'AdrienneSher@msn.com'" <AdrienneSher@msn.com>, "'AHSHER@ex-pressnet.com'" <AHSHER@ex-pressnet.com> From: "email@example.com" <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: Re: Confusion in Rabbi Yakov Uri to Kreiswirth/Polimer lineage Dear All, Let me shed light on what I know. Regarding the 1841 issue, Joel, you noted a limitation in Family Tree Maker (at least in version 5). In the Outline view it improperly translates "before 1841" as 1841. I quoted to you 1830's (rather than "before 1841") because that is most likely, given R' yakov Uri's subsequent marriage and the number of children he had, although it could have been as late as 1840 itself. I agree with your synopsis regarding the tightness of the dates. While it is possible that there are errors (I have no eye witness accounts of course), I rely somewhat on the ancillary families for proof. Henya's younger sister, Rochel Leah, had a son Shalom, born 1861. This is an even tighter timetable than you presented. Perhaps Henya was even not the oldest. Henya was an orphan from her mother by 1840. Her father re-married, so depending on who raised her, she may have been without him either. In any event, her father, R' Yakov Uri, passed on in 1855. It was common practice to marry off orphans at a very early age, especially in Rabbinic circles. Being grandchildren of the famed personality of R' Hersh Mylech Spira, this was potentially an easy task.If it helps, my great-great-grandmother married when she was 14 and gave birth to my g-gf at 16. Reviewing your own references to the offspring Naftuli Polimer, there is a nine year gap between Samuel and Leon. There is also a 16 year gap between Samuel and his wife Stella. Could the 1860 date for Samuel be off by five or more years? Let me present a scenario: Chaim Kreiswirth - 1918, son of Perla Kreiswirth - 1885, dtr of, Esther Fisch - 1855, dtr of Hannah Polimer - 1838, dtr of Henya Uri - 1823, dtr of Rivka Uri - 1809, dtr of R' Hersh Mylech Spira - 1783 Again, I agree with Joel's accurate portrayal of this situation. It does give one what to think about and should additional data come to light disproving this, nobody would be shocked. With that said, let me just reiterate that this is the tradition that Rabbi Kreiswirth related to me. It is not impossible. Additionally, Rabbi Kreiswirth mentioned that Henya was Moshe Yosef Polimer's first marriage. Looking at the children of his second marriage, you list Augusta "Gussie" Polimer as his second child from his wife Miriam, with a birth date of July 1849. This was Miriam's second marriage too. From that perspective, Hannah Polimer, eldest child of Moshe Yosef Polimer from a prior marriage, was at least several years older than Augusta "Gussie" Polimer. However, under Miriam was also married before. Under her FIRST marriage, the one prior to Moshe Yosef Polimer (with Samuel Kahlman Warfield), you list a child, Riva Warfield, born in 1853, four years after her half-sister, Gussie, was born. This is not possible. Under Jewish law, a woman may not remarry her first husband after having been married again in between, so one of these dates need to be altered slightly. It would be nice to find some documents that could corroborate any of this. I will contact Rabbi Kreiswirth and find out where his ancestors passed on, Perhaps death records might give age, although I am sure we all know about the reliability of those records. Sorry for rambling so, your input would be most welcome. -Moishe email@example.com _____________________________________________________________________ From: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu> To: "'firstname.lastname@example.org'" <email@example.com> Subject: RE: Confusion in Rabbi Yakov Uri to Kreiswirth/Polimer lineage Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:46:22 -0400 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Moishe- Thank you for the enlightening reply. I agree with your rebuttal of my remarks. I see what you are saying about Augusta 'Gussie' Polimer's birth year being wrong. The earliest date I can associate with her is her son's wedding in 1894. That would give him a birth year of before 1877, and her a birth year of before 1860 (assuming he got married at 17 AND she had him at 17). Therefore, the 1849 seems suspicious. I need to go through my files and find out who told me she was born in 1849. It was probably a descendant by her second marriage (Arlene Marcia Waldman Laveman), but I don't think she supplied any proof. In looking at the data for Samuel Kalman Polmer, where I show Sep 1 1860/1, those dates come from his obituary and from a census report, differing only in the year. Therefore, I am confident on this. This then puts Napthali Hirsch Polimer's birth year ("about 1840") at no later than about 1843. However, I do not see this impacting the "scenario" you laid out. The birth year for Hannah Polimer you showed as 1838 still works. In fact, you could make it 1939, and thereby have the spans between Henya/Hannah and Hannah/Esther each 16 years. That only leaves the birth of Henya occurring when her mother is 14. I think inasmuch as these are all fairly speculative years, and can be off by 1-2 minimum, that we should maintain the tree as we have it, and hope that something firmer comes up to prove or disprove it. I am anxious to learn what you hear from Rabbi Kreiswirth. Keep in touch! Joel PS - I received a nice photo of Rabbi Kreiswirth, and I am attaching it.
I would be very interested to hear from anyone with knowledge or an interest in the Miller family.
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