Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 04:49:44 -0400
From: Suzan Wynne <srwynne@erols.com>
To: "Miller, Moishe" <moishe@langsam.com>
Subject: [Fwd: Elimelech of Dynow]
From: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu>
To: "'aritche@hotmail.com'" <aritche@hotmail.com>, "'eharel@ucsd.edu'"
<eharel@ucsd.edu>, "'marap@village.uunet.be'" <marap@village.uunet.be>,
"'bla@tri-lakes.net'" <bla@tri-lakes.net>, "'srwynne@erols.com'"
<srwynne@erols.com>, "'ypedhazur@hotmail.com'" <ypedhazur@hotmail.com>,
"'mackaplan3@yahoo.com'" <mackaplan3@yahoo.com>, "'DISD123@aol.com'"
<DISD123@aol.com>, "'goodman@gwi.net'" <goodman@gwi.net>
Subject: Elimelech of Dynow
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2001 14:59:49 -0400
I was wondering if your research has connected to Rabbi Tswi Elimelech from Dinow.
I have a letter from Rabbbi Chaim Kreiswirth, the Chief Rabbi of Antwerp,that says,
".... our common great-grandfather Reb Moshe Yossef Polimer...Hiswife was the
grandchild of the very famous Rabbi Tswi Elimelech from Dinow."
I believe that Tswi Elimelech's last name was Shapira, Spira, or something similar.
I would like to find information on the descendent's of Tswi Elimelech.
Thanks,
Joel Weiner
joel.weiner@jhuapl.edu
_____________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2001 03:14:28 -0400
To: joel.weiner@jhuapl.edu
From: "moishe@langsam.com" <moishe@langsam.com>
Subject: [Fwd: Elimelech of Dynow]
Cc: "'aritche@hotmail.com'" <aritche@hotmail.com>, "'eharel@ucsd.edu'"
<eharel@ucsd.edu>, "'marap@village.uunet.be'" <marap@village.uunet.be>,
"'bla@tri-lakes.net'" <bla@tri-lakes.net>, "'ypedhazur@hotmail.com'"
<ypedhazur@hotmail.com>, "'mackaplan3@yahoo.com'" <mackaplan3@yahoo.com>,
"'DISD123@aol.com'" , "'goodman@gwi.net'"
<goodman@gwi.net>
Hi,
Suzan sent me your note. Please visit my website at
www.langsam.com
or for the specific page in question, please view
http://www.ics.uci.edu/~dan/genealogy/Miller/spira/bny-yscr.htm
Can you tell me anymore about the specific connection? Who was Reb Moshe Yossef
Polimer married to? What were her parent's names? Does Rabbi Kreiswirth have
email?
Please stay in touch, as I would like to add your branch into the tree.
Thanks!
Moishe Miller
moishe@langsam.com
_____________________________________________________________________
From: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu>
To: "'moishe@langsam.com'" <moishe@langsam.com>
Subject: Elimelech of Dynow and Rabbi Chaim Kreiswirth
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 10:22:50 -0400
Moishe-
Thank you for your telephone call last night. It was good talking with you.
I hope that we can determine one way or another if we have a common branch
in our family trees.
The piece of information that started my quest for information about
Elimelech of Dynow was that Rabbi Kreiswirth, in a letter to another Polimer
descendent, said that his ancestor, Moshe Yossef Polimer, had a wife who was
a granddaughter of Elimelech of Dynow. We know that Moshe Yossef Polimer was
married twice, once to Miriam, who had previously been married to Samuel
Kahlman Warfield, and earlier to a woman whose name is unknown.
In addition to that information, this is what I know:
1) My great-great-grandfather was Isaac Polimer. According to the death
certificate of one of his children, Isaac was from Hlomcza, Austria.
2) Rabbi Chaim Kreiswirth's great-great-grandfather (his mother's
mother's mother's father) was Moshe Yossef Polimer. According to the Rabbi,
he was a farmer from (my interpretation of what he said, followed by some
serious map searching) "Siedlce or Siedlec" Galicia.
3) According to his USA arrival passenger ship manifest, the son of
Moshe Yossef indicated that he was from Zadownicki, Austria.
4) There was also Jacob Polimer whose son, Menashe, settled in Boston.
According to Menashe's death certificate, he was from Austria. Jacob was the
great-great-grandfather of Sueellen Goodman.
5) Several years ago, I asked Rabbi Kreiswirth if he knew the
relationship between Isaac, Moshe, and Jacob. He told me that they were
brothers.
6) However, some family tree charts that were prepared back in the
1930's by a descendent of Moshe showed boxes and lines that could be
interpreted to mean that Moshe was the FATHER of Isaac and Jacob, and not
their brother. It is interesting to note that on those charts, the name was
anglicized as "Moses Joseph". I have always assumed that Rabbi Kreiswirth
had better information, as he was very seriously researching this Polimer
family history back in the 1950's and 1960's.
7) Rabbi Kreiswirth was not able to provide any information about the
parents of Isaac/Jacob/Moshe Polimer.
8) There is some confusion about the last names on Rabbi Kreiswirth's
paternal side. In a responsa he wrote, he mentions that his father was Rabbi
Abraham Yosef Rapaport from Magnishov. However, other reliable sources
indicate that his parents were Abraham Yosef Sherman and "? Rapaport".
Abraham Yosef may have taken his wife's name, as her ancestorial line goes
to Chaim HaKoen (HaMechaber) Rappoport.
9) Rabbi Kreiswirth's mother's parents were Rabbi Aaron Kreiswirth and
Esther Fisch. Esther's grandfather was Moshe Yossef Polimer.
10) Rabbi Kreiswirth's wife, Sarah Grodzinsky, is the daughter of Rabbi
Abraham Grodzinsky, Dean of the Slobodka Yeshiva (where Rabbi Kreiswirth
went). Sarah's mother, Chasya Gisseh Heller, is the daughter of Rabbi DovBer
Hirsch.
11) Rabbi Kreiswirth's son is Rabbi Dov Zvi Kreiswirth of Lakewood, NJ.
12) Rabbi Kreiswirth's daughter Penina is married to Rabbi Pincus
Zelivansky of Jerusalem, whose lineage is traced back to Joseph Treves, ABD
of Paris, born about 1300 (in "The Unbroken Chain"). His grandfather was
Rabbi Aryeh Shapiro from Bialystok who was the son of Rabbi Refoel of
Volozhin who was the son in law of the Netziv of Volozhin.
CONTACT INFORMATION:
Rabbi Chaim Kreiswirth
Quiten Matsijslei 34
2018 Anterwerpen Belgium
Phone 3-233-5567
Rabbi Dov Zvi Kreiswirth
Lakewood, NJ
Penina Zelivansky
Sorotzkin Street 41
Jerusalem, Israel
email = Zahava126@aol.com
Dr. Henri Rosenberg
(creator of a massive website about Rabbi Chaim Kreiswirth)
http://www.moronhoravkreiswirth.org
hrosenberg@lawyer-a1.com
President@goedkosjer.org
As we discussed, I will ask Henri Rosenberg to speak to Rabbi Chaim
Kreiswirth about his connection to Elimelech of Dynow. If I learn anything,
I will let you know. If you learn anything, let me know.
Regards,
Joel Weiner
9026 Shinleaf Ct.
Columbia, MD 21045
email = joel.weiner@jhuapl.edu
phone = 410-992-7867
_____________________________________________________________________
From: "Moishe Miller"
To: joel.weiner@jhuapl.edu
cc: goodman@gwi.net, moishe@langsam.com
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 15:30:56 -0400
Subject: Spoke w/ R' Kreiswirth
Hi,
There is some ambiguity. I spoke with R' Kreizwirth myself three times
today. He explained his relationship to the Spira family. His connection is
via R' Yakov Uri, ABD Turka, who was a son-in-law to R' Hersh Mylech (Tzvi
Elimelech) Spira through R' Yakov Uri's first marriage. R' Yakov Uri was a
grand-son-in-law via his second marriage. R' Yakov Uri's first wife, Rivka
Spira, died young. His second wife, Yitta Leah Schonfeld, was a daughter of
Sara Spira (and Moshe Schonfeld). Sara was an older sister of Rivka.
Anyhow, in my existing tree, I have the oldest child of R' Yakov Uri's
first marriage as Henya, married to a Eliyahu (Elias) Fisch. In your tree,
you have Hanna Polimer married to Eliyahu Fisch. So we are close, but
obviously not in sync. I have no idea what is correct. The only thing I can
tell you is that Rivka died in the 1830's and had four children. This makes
her eligible to marry either generation.
Can you send me a gedcom of the Moshe Yosef Polimer family (from him to
current day)? I have FTM 5.0b.
Thanks!!!
-Moishe
_____________________________________________________________________
From: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu>
To: 'Moishe Miller'
Cc: goodman@gwi.net, moishe@langsam.com
Subject: RE: Spoke w/ R' Kreiswirth
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:36:54 -0400
Moishe-
I think it is great that you were able to call Rabbi Kreiswirth and speak
with him three times! I have never done so, perhaps because I have worried
about not being able to communicate well enough to avoid adding to the
confusion. Unfortunately, my Hebrew abilities are 'synagogue' limited, and
Yiddish, Dutch, etc. are non-existent.
I needed to see the information you obtained from Rabbi Kreiswirth in
picture form, so I created a mini-family tree. I have attached it as a jpg
file and in an MS Word file. Let me know if you can't open one of them, or
if it doesn't seem to match what he told you.
I will send you the gedcom file you requested in a short while. It starts
with a Unknown Father of Moshe Yosef, Isaac and Jacob Polimer, thereby
assuming that they were brothers.
Joel
_____________________________________________________________________
"Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu>
Friday April 27, 2001 09:49 AM
To: "'Moishe Miller'"
Subject: Polimer Gedcom
Moishe-
Here it is, with 803 people. Let me know if you cannot open it with FTM. I
am on a Macintosh, using Reunion. I have NOT filtered out living people, so
please do not post this data on a website or other public forum.
Thanks,
Joel
(See attached file: Polimer.ged)
_____________________________________________________________________
From: Moishe Miller
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2001 3:04 PM
To: Weiner, Joel A.
Subject: RE: Spoke w/ R' Kreiswirth
Descendants of Yakov Uri
1 Yakov Uri 1810 - 1855
.. +Rivka Spira - 1841
......... 2 Henya Uri
............. +Moshe Yosef Polimer
......... 2 Gittel Hinda Uri
............. +Moshe Rottenberg
......... 2 Avrohm Yehoshua Heshel Uri
............. +girl ?
......... *2nd Wife of Avrohm Yehoshua Heshel Uri:
............. +girl ? - #2
......... 2 Rochel Leah Uri
............. +Naftali Seidenfeld 1831 - 1903
*2nd Wife of Yakov Uri:
.. +Yitta Leah Schonfeld
......... 2 Frieda Uri - 1909
............. +Shmuel Zanvil Kallech 1840 - 1883
......... 2 Elyakim Uri
......... 2 Raizel Uri
............. +Yitzchok Perlmutter
......... 2 Chana Mindel Uri
............. +Tzvi Newman
......... 2 Chava Uri 1850 - 1932
............. +Samuel Fisch
Please copy my home email on everything. this mailbox is the one I use at
work. The one I do my genealogy from is
moishe@langsam.com
He did not lay out all the info above. In fact, he only knew that he came
from Henya, daughter of R' Yakov Uri, ABD Turka.
I found my old source that placed her husband as Eliyahu Fisch. While that
is possible, the old source was NOT dealing with this branch, nor was it a
descendent of this branch. R' Kreizwirth told me that he comes from Henya,
so I am changing the spouse to be Moshe Polimer, with a note about Eliyahu
Fish.
It seems likely that the person that wrote the source I saw confused the
father and the son, so there is some truth in it, just the generations are
confused.
-Moishe
moishe@langsam.com
PS: Have you spoken with Mietek Silberg ?
_____________________________________________________________________
From: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu>
To: 'Moishe Miller', "'moishe@langsam.com'"
<moishe@langsam.com>
Cc: "'ASher@mc.cc.md.us'" <ASher@mc.cc.md.us>, "'AdrienneSher@msn.com'"
<AdrienneSher@msn.com>
Subject: RE: Spoke w/ R' Kreiswirth
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 15:37:12 -0400
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
Moishe-
I will have to study the information you sent me below to see if dates make
sense. I will let you know if I see any conflicts.
Where did you get the name of Mietek from? Yes, I have communicated with
him. It was a few years ago. I will need to pull my files apart to find his
letter(s). I recall that he is Michael Silberg in Australia.
There is another individual who has been doing research for 50+ years that
touches on the Kreiswirth branch, and you should discuss the link to
Uri/Spira with him. He is Professor George Sackheim, and his email is:
ZeraKodesh@aol.com. I last heard from him about six months ago. He is very
knowledgeable on many rabbinic lines.
A professional genealogist who has worked on the Kreiswirth family is Nicki
Russler, nrussler@usit.net. Nicki and I exchanged a number of emails about 3
years ago, when someone retained her to do some Kreiswirth research.
If you prefer, I could email Nicki Russler and George Sackheim. Just let me
know.
I don't know what else I can do at this time to better illuminate or
document the connection from Elimelech of Dinow to my Polimer's. I asked Dr.
Henri Rosenberg to discuss this topic with Rabbi Kreiswirth, but obviously
you got to him first!
Let's keep in touch.
Thanks,
Joel
_____________________________________________________________________
From: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu>
To: "'moishe@langsam.com'" <moishe@langsam.com>,
"'President@goedkosjer.org'" <President@goedkosjer.org>,
"'AdrienneSher@msn.com'" <AdrienneSher@msn.com>,
"'AHSHER@ex-pressnet.com'" <AHSHER@ex-pressnet.com>
Subject: Confusion in Rabbi Yakov Uri to Kreiswirth/Polimer lineage
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 10:50:53 -0400
Moishe, Henri, Al, Adrienne-
Hello to all, and thank you for helping me to deepen the 'roots' of my
family tree!
I would like to try to clarify a few problems I see in the linkage we have
created between Tzvi Elimelech and the Polimer/Kreiswirth branches.
I added the information below "The Descendants of Yakov Uri" (that I
received from Moishe Miller) into my database. I then printed out a
chart from Rabbi Hersch Mylech Spira (Tzvi
Elimelech) to Rabbi Kreiswirth's parents, for the purpose of looking
at the dates given for births and deaths.
I deleted any branches of the tree that were unnecessary for this analysis,
and then saved the chart. It is attached as a jpg file, MS Word document,
and gif file. Please open and print one of them
so that you can follow what I say below.
First, and a minor, problem is that Moishe says in his message of April 26
that Rivka Spira "died in the 1830's." However, in the data he sent on April
27, it shows her passing in 1841. This does not really make any difference
in the following consideration.
My chart shows Samuel Kalman Polmer and his sister Rosalyn "Rose" Polmer
both being born 1860/61. Their father, Napthali, is shown born "about 1840"
which would make him about 20 years old when they were born. So far, that
makes sense. He could have been a few years younger than 20 when Samuel and
Rosalyn were born, perhaps 17. So that would make it possible for his birth
year to have been about 1843.
Next, if Napthali was born about 1840 - 1843, then his mother (Henya Uri
Polimer, as shown in the chart) would need to have been born about 1823 -
1826 or earlier. I calculate this assuming that she would have been at least
17 when she had her first child (Napthali). This is a reasonable guess, but
a first child at 15 or 16 is not unheard of. But if Henya was 17 in 1840 -
1843, then she would have born 1823 - 1826.
If the above two paragraphs are true, then we have a problem with Rabbi
Yakov Uri being Henya's father, as he was born 1810, and would have been 13
- 16 when Henya was born in 1823 - 1826. If Henya or Napthali were older
than about 17 when either had their first child, then that makes Rabbi Uri
even younger!
So either Rabbi Yakov Uri, Henya Uri, and Napthali Polmer ALL had children
at a very young age (17 or less), or else the marriage we have "created"
between Henya Uri and Moshe Yosef Polimer must be questioned.
Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions?
Joel
_____________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 22:15:25 -0400
To: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu>, "'President@goedkosjer.org'"
, "'AdrienneSher@msn.com'" <AdrienneSher@msn.com>,
"'AHSHER@ex-pressnet.com'" <AHSHER@ex-pressnet.com>
From: "moishe@langsam.com" <moishe@langsam.com>
Subject: Re: Confusion in Rabbi Yakov Uri to Kreiswirth/Polimer lineage
Dear All,
Let me shed light on what I know. Regarding the 1841 issue, Joel, you noted
a limitation in Family Tree Maker (at least in version 5). In the Outline
view it improperly translates "before 1841" as 1841. I quoted to you 1830's
(rather than "before 1841") because that is most likely, given R' yakov Uri's
subsequent marriage and the number of children he had, although it could have
been as late as 1840 itself.
I agree with your synopsis regarding the tightness of the dates. While it is
possible that there are errors (I have no eye witness accounts of course), I
rely somewhat on the ancillary families for proof. Henya's younger sister,
Rochel Leah, had a son Shalom, born 1861. This is an even tighter timetable
than you presented. Perhaps Henya was even not the oldest.
Henya was an orphan from her mother by 1840. Her father re-married, so
depending on who raised her, she may have been without him either. In any
event, her father, R' Yakov Uri, passed on in 1855. It was common practice
to marry off orphans at a very early age, especially in Rabbinic circles.
Being grandchildren of the famed personality of R' Hersh Mylech Spira, this
was potentially an easy task.If it helps, my great-great-grandmother married
when she was 14 and gave birth to my g-gf at 16.
Reviewing your own references to the offspring Naftuli Polimer, there is a
nine year gap between Samuel and Leon. There is also a 16 year gap between
Samuel and his wife Stella. Could the 1860 date for Samuel be off by five
or more years? Let me present a scenario:
Chaim Kreiswirth - 1918, son of
Perla Kreiswirth - 1885, dtr of,
Esther Fisch - 1855, dtr of
Hannah Polimer - 1838, dtr of
Henya Uri - 1823, dtr of
Rivka Uri - 1809, dtr of
R' Hersh Mylech Spira - 1783
Again, I agree with Joel's accurate portrayal of this situation. It does give
one what to think about and should additional data come to light disproving
this, nobody would be shocked. With that said, let me just reiterate that this
is the tradition that Rabbi Kreiswirth related to me. It is not impossible.
Additionally, Rabbi Kreiswirth mentioned that Henya was Moshe Yosef Polimer's
first marriage. Looking at the children of his second marriage, you list Augusta
"Gussie" Polimer as his second child from his wife Miriam, with a birth date of
July 1849. This was Miriam's second marriage too. From that perspective, Hannah
Polimer, eldest child of Moshe Yosef Polimer from a prior marriage, was at least
several years older than Augusta "Gussie" Polimer. However, under Miriam was
also married before. Under her FIRST marriage, the one prior to Moshe Yosef
Polimer (with Samuel Kahlman Warfield), you list a child, Riva Warfield, born
in 1853, four years after her half-sister, Gussie, was born. This is not possible.
Under Jewish law, a woman may not remarry her first husband after having been
married again in between, so one of these dates need to be altered slightly.
It would be nice to find some documents that could corroborate any of this. I will
contact Rabbi Kreiswirth and find out where his ancestors passed on, Perhaps death
records might give age, although I am sure we all know about the reliability of
those records.
Sorry for rambling so, your input would be most welcome.
-Moishe
moishe@langsam.com
_____________________________________________________________________
From: "Weiner, Joel A." <Joel.Weiner@jhuapl.edu>
To: "'moishe@langsam.com'" <moishe@langsam.com>
Subject: RE: Confusion in Rabbi Yakov Uri to Kreiswirth/Polimer lineage
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:46:22 -0400
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
Moishe-
Thank you for the enlightening reply. I agree with your rebuttal of my
remarks.
I see what you are saying about Augusta 'Gussie' Polimer's birth year being
wrong. The earliest date I can associate with her is her son's wedding in
1894. That would give him a birth year of before 1877, and her a birth year
of before 1860 (assuming he got married at 17 AND she had him at 17).
Therefore, the 1849 seems suspicious. I need to go through my files and find
out who told me she was born in 1849. It was probably a descendant by her
second marriage (Arlene Marcia Waldman Laveman), but I don't think she
supplied any proof.
In looking at the data for Samuel Kalman Polmer, where I show Sep 1 1860/1,
those dates come from his obituary and from a census report, differing only
in the year. Therefore, I am confident on this. This then puts Napthali
Hirsch Polimer's birth year ("about 1840") at no later than about 1843.
However, I do not see this impacting the "scenario" you laid out. The birth
year for Hannah Polimer you showed as 1838 still works. In fact, you could
make it 1939, and thereby have the spans between Henya/Hannah and
Hannah/Esther each 16 years. That only leaves the birth of Henya occurring
when her mother is 14. I think inasmuch as these are all fairly speculative
years, and can be off by 1-2 minimum, that we should maintain the tree as we
have it, and hope that something firmer comes up to prove or disprove it.
I am anxious to learn what you hear from Rabbi Kreiswirth. Keep in touch!
Joel
PS - I received a nice photo of Rabbi Kreiswirth, and I am attaching it.
I would be very interested to hear from anyone with knowledge or an interest in the Miller family.
Moishe Miller
1374 East 28th Street
Brooklyn NY 11210-5311
USA
Last updated 1/1/02