Chava Fisch Descendant Tree
Jakov Fisch Descendant Tree
Author: Daniel Teichman <email@example.com> at INTERNET Date: 2/24/97 3:38 PM Priority: Normal TO: Moishe Miller at CC_NYP5W1 Subject: Spira family ------------------------------- Message Contents ------------------------------- Dear Mr Miller I'm a 37years old physician (specialized in psychiatry), living in Zuerich, interested in genealogy and member of Jewish Genealogical Society of Switzerland. I saw your impressive sites on Internet about the Langsam/Miller/Spira/Ekstein Genealogy. You seem to be "a stikel mischpoche" with my wife, who is supposed to be a descendant of the first Dynover Rebbe (R. Zvi Elimelech Spira, 1783-1841). According to Sam Fisch (living in Queens, first cousin of my wife's grandparents, who happened to be first cousins themselves) the Dynover Rebbe had a daughter (he is not sure about her first name: Malka? Jitte Lea?), who was married to Rabbi Jakov Uri of Turka. Their daughter, Chawa Uri, was married to Samuel (haLevi) Fisch, the grandfather of the mentioned source, Sam Fisch. Looking at your family tree on Internet I come to the conclusion that you seem to have the book "The Langsam-Spira family" (published in 1986, which I received from Suzan Wynne). As in that book, you also mention that a daughter of the Dynover Rebbe, called Rivka, was married to R. Jakov Uri. But so far, apart from Sam Fisch, nobody seems to know anything about any other children than the son Avraham Joschua Heshel. Recently I received a letter from a Alan Miller (New York) who wrote that he knows of an other connection than the one I got from Sam Fisch. Alan Miller writes that a daughter of Zvi Elimelech Spira, called Sara, was married to a man called Moshe; their daughter Lea was married to R. Jakov Uri and their daughter again, called Frieda was married to Schmuel Zanvil Kalech (born 1840 in Galicia), brother of the great-grandfather of Alan Miller. Indeed, Zvi Elimelech Spira seems to have had a daughter called Sara, married to a Moshe (Schonfeld), but there is no Frieda among their children. It's all very confusing! Although Sam Fisch seems to be very sure about the relationship, I'd like to find an other source for his presentation. Do you know anything more or do you know who could help me any further? Sincerely Daniel Teichman Kurfirstenstrasse 8 CH-8002 Zuerich E-mail: 106607,firstname.lastname@example.org or Daniel.Teichman@vsao.ch ____________________________________________________________________ Author: Daniel Teichman <email@example.com> at INTERNET Date: 11/26/97 6:28 PM Priority: Normal CC: Moishe Miller at CCSP27B1 TO: Suzan Wynne <firstname.lastname@example.org> at INTERNET CC: André Lévy <email@example.com> at INTERNET CC: Neil Rosenstein <Neil185@aol.com> at INTERNET CC: Louis Schonfeld <firstname.lastname@example.org> at INTERNET CC: David Sheby <email@example.com> at INTERNET Subject: Chawa FISCH ------------------------------- Message Contents ------------------------------- Dear distant relatives and friends! Thank you all for your help with my research in my wife's ancestry. You all know that for the past ten years I tried to find out the exact connection between my wife and Rav Zvi Elimelech of Dynow (the "Bnej Jisasschar"). I had the information that my wife's great-great-grandmother, Chawa (married to Schmuel Fisch) was the daughter of R. Jakov Uri of Turka, who was married to a daughter of R. Zvi Elimelech of Dynow. My informant, Sam Fisch (grandson of Schmuel and Chawa Fisch) didn't remember the name of this daughter of the Dynower Rebbe exactly (Jitte Lea or Malka?). Well, today I received the copy of the death certificate of Chawa Fisch-Uri (thank you Suzan for the address and the information about what I can find in Sanok!). She died in Zagorz in 1932 at the age of 82. The document gives her father's name as "Jakub Uri" and her mother's name as "Itta Leja" (no surname mentioned). The informations imply that Chawa Fisch-Uri was born in 1850. Rav Jakob Uri died in Turka in 1855, so this fits well. His first wife, Rivka (daughter of the Dynover Rebber) is said to have died before her father, e.g. before 1841. So by 1850 he may well have been married to "Itta Leja". Some of you gave me the information that Jakov Uri was first married to a daughter of the Dynover Rebbe (Rivka) and then to a granddaughter of the Dynover Rebbe. This second wife was the daughter of Moshe Schonfeld, who was married to Sara Spira, daughter of Rav Zvi Elimelech of Dynow. Last year I received a letter from Alan Miller, who wrote to me that "a daughter of Zvi Elimelech Spira, called Sara, was married to a man called Moshe; their daughter Lea (sic!) was married to R. Jakov Uri and their daughter again, called Frieda was married to Schmuel Zanvil Kalech" (born 1840 in Galicia, brother of the great-grandfather of Alan Miller). The name Lea is also mentioned in a letter from Suzan (August 20, 1997): "Turning now to Alan and Lou's contention that Yaakov Uri married Sara's daughter, Lea Schonfeld, after his wife Rivka's death" Finally this all fits well with the informations I received from Sam Fisch, who actually did remember his grandmother mother's name (Jitte Lea), only that Jitte Leja was not a daughter, but a granddaughter of the Dynover Rebbe. So I come to the conclusion that my wife's grandparents (who were first cousins, both grandchildren of Chawa Fisch-Uri) were great-great-great-grandchildren of the Dynower Rebbe and for my own children I have to add three other "greats". It seems that finally all the misteries are solved and I thank you all again for your help and the informations you provided me with. Best regards Daniel Teichman (Zurich, Switzerland) e-mail: Daniel.Teichman@vsao.ch P.S. 1. Moishe, on Thu, 14 Aug 1997 you wrote: "I would like to try and include you in my website. What specific information can you supply regarding your descent from The Bnei Yissochur?" So finally I am ready to give you more information about my wife's family so that you can include this branch on your website as well. Please tell me how I should send you the data (e-mail, diskette, printout?). 2. Neil, on 14.10.97 you wrote "Finally got three sources for you re URI family - 1. Ohel Shimeon reprinted by R. Meir Wunder 2 Wunder, Me'orei Galicia - vol I, p.281 3. Tachum D'Oraita Dau (of the Bne Jisasschar) married firstly Moshe Sheinfeld whose daughter became second wife of Jacob URI. They had a daughter who married Isaac Eizik PERLMUTTER of TOSCH. His two sons-in-law were Zeidenfeld and Brand. From them stem large families." Could I get copies of the relevant pages in the sources you mentioned? Do you have more informations about the Perlmutter, Zeidenfeld and Brand families? 3. Louis, do you have any documents or other sources as to the children of Moshe Schonfeld, especially Jitte Lea? As my wife and you seem to be related through the Langsam/Spira and also the Schonfeld family, could you give me more information about the Schonfelds? From: Daniel Teichman <firstname.lastname@example.org> at INTERNET TO: Moishe Miller CC: Neil Rosenstein <Neil185@aol.com>; Louis Schonfeld <email@example.com>; David Sheby <firstname.lastname@example.org>; Suzan Wynne <email@example.com> Subject: family tree Priority: Normal Date: 11/30/97 4:20 AM --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dear Moishe! To your questions: 1) As the connection to the second marriage of Jakov Uri was new to me, I have no knowledge of other children then Chawa. I have only heard that Chawa had a sister in Jerusalem, who was married to a "Mekubal". She is buried in the old cemetery of Safed, but I don't know where exactly. I'd like to find out more about this branch as well! Any suggestions? As to the (only?) child of the first marriage of Jakov Uri (with Rivka): Sarah Honig in Israel has - as to my knowledge - worked the most on his descendants. Suzan Wynne used to be in touch with her. 2) I'd love to combine "my branch" with your tree. I have no idea whether I'll be able to send my file as an email attachement, but I am willing to try. I have the information on "Family Tree Maker" and on a file "Word for Windows" as well as "Word Perfect for Windows". What do you prefer? So far most of it is in German, so if you want more then just names and dates I guess I should translate things in English? 3) Neil Rosenstein tried to send you an e-mail; have you received it? Best regards Daniel --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: Daniel Teichman <firstname.lastname@example.org> at INTERNET Date: 12/1/97 4:49 PM Priority: Normal TO: Moishe Miller at CCSP27B1 Subject: Family tree ------------------------------- Message Contents ------------------------------- Dear Moishe! This is to try what I can send you as attachement. With this message I attach a file (Word for Windows), which contains a list of descendants of Zvi Elimelech of Dynow, as I have them in my Family Tree Maker program. With the second message I attach a file (Word for Windows), with two charts: one with the descendants of Sara Spira (married to Moshe Schonfeld) and the other with descendants of Jakov Fisch (great-grandchild of Sara Spira and Moshe Schonfeld, and great-grandfather of my wife. David Sheby is married to a daughter of Sam Fisch, who is a grandson of Chawa Uri and Samuel Fisch. My address: Daniel Teichman Kurfirstenstrasse 8 CH-8002 Zurich Best regards Daniel ________________________________________________ Principal: CN=Moishe Miller/OU=PSG/O=Prudential PostedDate: 01/31/99 09:45:50 AM SendTo: 106607.620 @compuserve.com @ Eagle2,Daniel.Teichman @vsao.ch @ Eagle2,srwynne @erols.com @ Eagle2,langsam @sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu @ Eagle2,levy @eye.ch @ Eagle2,Neil185 @aol.com @ Eagle2,Lmagyar @en.com @ Eagle2,hosp @voicenet.com @ Eagle2 CopyTo: Subject: Uri Family Tree Dear Daniel Teichman, Suzan Wynne, Yedidya Langsam, André Lévy, Neil Rosenstein, Louis Schonfeld, David Sheby, Hi! I hope this finds you all well. Its been a long time since we were all on the same communication. Louie Schonfeld just sent me a copy of "L'Bais Ahvosum" (To Their Father's House), by Yehuda Friedman, 1994, Ashdod, Israel. In it, on page 40, he lists all the known children (to him) of Yakov Uri, from both marriages; to R' Zvi Elimelech's daughter Rivka, and to his granddaughter, the niece of his first wife. To summarize: Yakov Uri (d. 1855) married Rivka Spira, daughter of R' Zvi Elimelech. One of Rivka's sisters was Sara. This will be important soon. Yakov, who Friedman lists as Yakov (Eliezer) Uri, had three children from this marriage, a boy and two girls. Friedman lists these as: ~ Avrohm Yehoshua Heschel Uri ~ Henya, married to Eliyahu Meshulam Fisch ~ Gittel Hinda, married to Moshe Rotenberg Yakov Uri's first wife, Rivka Spira, died in her father's lifetime, so she passed on before 1841. Yakov Uri then married a Schonfeld, daughter of Moshe and Sara. Sara was another daughter of R' Zvi Elimelech, as was mentioned before. This means that Yakov Uri married his niece, or his brother-in-law's daughter. Therefore, some of his children were grandchildren of the Bnei Yissochur and some were great-grandchildren. Friedman lists four children for the second marriage, a boy and three girls. He does not list the name of Yakov Uri's second wife, only that she was the daughter of Moshe Schonfeld. The children listed were: ~ Elyakim Uri ~ Raizel, g-g-g-grandmother of Friedman, married to Yitzchok Isaac Perlmutter. ~ Rochel Leah, married to Naftali Zeidenfeld ~ Chana Mindel, married to Tzvi Neiman (Nyman). Let us now turn to Daniel Teichman's emails to us, from 2/24/97, 11/26/97, and 11/30/97. For those that do not have these, they can be viewed at my website, under Uri, at http://www.ics.uci.edu/~dan/genealogy/Miller/spira\spira.htm (clicking on the "The Uri Family" link will take you to the letters, clicking on the tree image will take you to the homepage) There, Daniel states that he comes from what would be a fifth child from Yakov Uri's second marriage, Chana, married to Shmuel "ha'Levi" Fisch. He has her death record, from Zagorz, in 1932. It lists her as being 82, which means born 1850. This is after the death of Yakov Uri's first wife (pre-1841). It lists her parents as Yakov and Itta Leja Uri. Daniel also speaks of a sixth child from the second marriage. Alan Miller g-grandfather had a brother named Schmuel Zanvil KALECH (born 1840). Alan told Daniel that this uncle was married to Freida, daughter of Lea, which presumably was Itta Leja. It could not be the first wife because Schmuel Zanvil was born after her death. This means that Yakov Uri had NINE children. Some problems or issues with this: The surname Fisch is listed for marriages of daughters from each marriage (Henya and Chava). While not a problem (many families remarried into the same families over and over), it still should be noted. Friedman lists the third child of Yakov Uri's second marriage as Rochel LEAH. Both Daniel and Alan say the wife was LEAH. Her daughter would not have even the same partial name as her. This is obviously a problem. Since Daniel has records to support his claim, the Zeidenfeld connection is suspect. Does anybody know descendants of this family? Maybe she was from the first wife? Daniel, in your 11/26/97 letter you quote three additional sources from Dr. Rosenstein. The second one is listed as 2 Wunder, Me'orei Galicia - vol I, p.281 This should read p. 287, where a VERY brief entry for Yakov Uri is listed, or p. 280, or the Uri entries start. To finally come to the point, can anybody shed more light on this? Louie, can you contact Friedman and ask him about this? 1994 was five years ago, presumably he has received feedback on his book. Does anybody else have more info to substantiate any of these families? Daniel, do you have more of this in Family Tree Maker or GEDCOM format? I would like to obtain an updated copy. If not, would you be willing to try and flesh out all of Yakov Uri's offspring from both marriages? Dr. Rosenstein, have you received any additional unpublished "Broken Chain" material for R' Z. E. Spira? Any and all suggestions would be welcome. With your permission I will post this to my website. Regards! -Moishe email@example.com ________________________________________________ From: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Uri Family Tree PostedDate: 01/31/99 05:23:30 PM SendTo: email@example.com,firstname.lastname@example.org,CN=Moishe Miller/OU=PSG/O=Prudential,Neil185@aol.com,email@example.com,firstname.lastname@example.org,email@example.com DeliveredDate: 01/31/99 05:24:55 PM Dear friends and relatives, Thank you, Moishe, for the initial mail and you, Louis, for the first responses. During the 12 years I tried to understand the connection between my wife (she is the descendant of all these famous Rabbis, not me) and the Dynower Rebbe, I noticed a lot of contradictions in several sources. Some of them, I managed to solve, others are still not clear to me. I read all your questions, Moishe, and I will try to answer what I can in a following mail. Today I have to inform you, that Sam Fish (cousin of my wife's grandparents and father-in-law of David Sheby, who also receives these messages) has passed away 10 days ago. It was him who gave me the first hints as to the relationship of the Fish family to the Uri and Spira ancestry. Unfortunately I never met him, we only corresponded by mail and I will miss his letters, which were full of knowledge and humour. Best regards Daniel Teichman Zurich, Switzerland e-mail: Daniel.Teichman@vsao.ch P.S. 1. Please note that my father-in-law has a new e-mail address: firstname.lastname@example.org 2. I have two e-mail addresses, it's enough to send mail to email@example.com and not also to firstname.lastname@example.org ------------------------------------------------- From: email@example.com Subject: Uri - Fisch family PostedDate: 04/15/99 06:40:33 PM SendTo: CN=Moishe Miller/OU=PSG/O=Prudential CopyTo: firstname.lastname@example.org,email@example.com,firstname.lastname@example.org,Neil185@aol.com,email@example.com,firstname.lastname@example.org,email@example.com DeliveredDate: 04/15/99 06:43:31 PM Dear Moishe and all others! After Rabbi Marmorstein's enthusiastic message to the H-SIG discussion group about your website, I checked it again today and I noticed all the new information you added in this last update. Congratulations and thank you very much for this fantastic work! In a message from January 31th 1999, you asked a few questions. One was that either Jakov Uri's second wife could not have had the name "Lea" because Friedmann in his book lists a daughter of this second marriage with the name "Rochel Leah", or Rochel Lea must have been a daughter of the first marriage. On the website I noticed that you now listed Rochel Lea as daughter of the first marriage. So I guess you were able to solve this problem? May I ask what source you could find for this? Was Leo Hirsch (mentioned by Louis and you in following e-mails) of any help? As addition to an other daughter of Jakov Uri and Rivka Spira, namely Gittel Hinda (married to R Moshe Rottenberg, ABD Kozava): I have a postcard, written in Jiddish on December 16th 1940, from Mordechaj Fisch, son of Chava Fisch, sent from "Fisch at Beile Rottenberg, Kozowa". At the end Mordechaj writes: Frau Rottenberg is das ejn Mishpaha (Mrs Rottenberg is a relative). As to your question regarding the Fish connections on both sides: 1. Henya, daughter of Jakov Uri and Rivka Spira, married to Eliyahu Meshullam Fish 2. Chava, daughter of Jakov Uri and Lea Schonfeld, married to Samuel Fisch You wrote: While not a problem (many families remarried into the same families over and over), it still should be noted. Even more puzzling is the fact, a grandson of Chava and Samuel Fisch (namely my wife's grandfather) was called Avraham MESHULLAM Fishl Fisch ! May I suggest to correct one obvious error on the website: Lea, married to R Jakov (who died 1855) can not be born in 1850, otherwise she would have been at the age of between 1 to 5 at her wedding! The dates are correct for her daughter though, Chava Fisch, who was born about 1850 and died in 1932. Lea was probably born around 1830. And are you sure that the first mentioned son of Sara and Moshe Schonfeld, R Pesach Avrohm, was born in 1821? This would make his father be 11 years old at the birth of his first child!? One further question: What happened to Louis' plea, not to neglect Sender Uri's descendants (Rabbis Pinchas Arye and Akiva Gottlieb)? And to his suggestion to find a liaison in Israel (Rabbi Meir Wunder or Yehuda Friedman)? Best regards to all of you! Daniel Teichman Zurich, Switzerland e-mail: Daniel.Teichman@vsao.ch _______________________________________________________ AuthorList: CN=Moishe Miller/OU=PSG/O=Prudential PostedDate: 04/15/99 08:45:19 PM SendTo: 106607.620 @compuserve.com @ Eagle2 CopyTo: langsam @sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu @ Eagle2,neurolevy @datacomm.ch @ Eagle2,mehadrin @aol.com @ Eagle2,Neil185 @aol.com @ Eagle2,lmagyar @en.com @ Eagle2,hosp @voicenet.com @ Eagle2,srwynne @erols.com @ Eagle2 Subject: Re: Uri - Fisch family Dear Daniel, Thank you for your kind words about the website. I was most appreciative of Rabbi Marmorstein's enthusiastic message to the H-SIG discussion group. Let me respond point by point on your answers (and questions) regarding my message from January 31th 1999. 1). Either Jakov Uri's second wife could not have had the name "Lea" because Friedmann in his book lists a daughter of this second marriage with the name "Rochel Leah", or Rochel Lea must have been a daughter of the first marriage. I interviewed two descendants from other parts of the Uri tree, and traced what I believe to be the source through Leo Hirsch. He was kind enough to invite me to his home and spend almost two hours with me going through his old notes. He showed me a handwritten tree from Yosef Boruch Schechter with his sources noted on it. Attached were copies of those sources. I read it myself (in the xeroxed Hebrew copy) and Yosef Boruch Schechter's comments on it. He was the source. It was apparent that while the Hebrew does indicate the name, it does NOT say which marriage Rochel Leah was from. I can not quote the source to you at this time although I will endeavor to look it up. Sorry. 2). You wrote: "As addition to an other daughter of Jakov Uri and Rivka Spira, namely Gittel Hinda (married to R Moshe Rottenberg, ABD Kozava): I have a postcard, written in Jiddish on December 16th 1940, from Mordechaj Fisch, son of Chava Fisch, sent from "Fisch at Beile Rottenberg, Kozowa". At the end Mordechaj writes: Frau Rottenberg is das ejn Mishpaha (Mrs Rottenberg is a relative)." I can not detect the inflection. Is it a comment or a question? 3). Thanks for clarifying that there were indeed two Fisch sons-in-law for Jakov Uri. As an aside, the Fish family seems to play a role in Suzan's portion of the tree. 4). Thanks for the correction of the obvious error on the website: Lea, married to R Jakov (who died 1855) can not be born in 1850, otherwise she would have been at the age of between 1 to 5 at her wedding!" This is my fault and illustrates how easy it is to create errors if you do not use family tree software (the website is generated by hand). Louie Schonfeld had supplied me with extracts of census dates several researchers had found for him, as well as a large tree he had. I was thrilled and just plugged them in. That is the source for the 1821 date for R Pesach Avrohm as well. I did not see actual copies, only a typed extract and computer generated tree. Louie, Any chance of taking a look at your originals for these two birth years? 5). You asked if I was sure that the first mentioned son of Sara and Moshe Schonfeld, R Pesach Avrohm, was born in 1821? This would make his father be 11 years old at the birth of his first child!? See #4 above. My guess is that it was a typo on the extract and should read 1831, but that is only a guess. Louie, Once again, can you verify? 6). Regarding Louis' plea, not to neglect Sender Uri's descendants (Rabbis Pinchas Arye and Akiva Gottlieb)? I wrote a couple of letters, but since the initial response two years ago, have not received any replies. Can anyone facilitate? 7). Regarding a suggestion to find a liaison in Israel, based on some recent experiences, I personally would only be happy with a blood connection in this position. It is kind of a more vested interest. Any suggestions? Thank you Daniel for all the effort you put into your letter. I will add it to the end of your email page on the net, linked off your g-grandmother. G'Shabbos to you all! -Moishe PS: Who is firstname.lastname@example.org ? ______________________________________________________ From: "Carole & Raphy Fisch"
Subject: Re: Spira and Bukowsko Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 18:30:53 +0100 To: Hi Moishe, I am sorry that I didn't answer you before, but at the moment we have all our family, son, daughter and son-in-law, here from Israel. My husband, Rephael Fisch's great grandmother was Chava Uri. I saw your site on Internet and noticed that Daniel Teichman had given you a family tree. His wife, Miriam, is a 1st cousin once removed of my husband. Regards, Carole Fisch ______________________________________________________
I would be very interested to hear from anyone with knowledge or an interest in the Miller family.
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